I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I
have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker.
There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and
from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to
each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch
that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old
AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as
it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total
of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14
wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights
that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit
breaker in main panel?

On 05 Jul 2003, Alexander Galkin wrote:

> I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation
> project. I have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the
> same breaker. There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the
> entrance switch box and from the switch box there are three separate
> 12 AWG wires bringing power to each of three recessed lights circuit.
> One of the circuits are 4-way switch that controls 4 recessed lights.
> Unfortunately one of three switches has old AWG 14 wire running to the
> nearest box and there is no way to replace it as it is virtually
> inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total of 25
> recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
> want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
> AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
> only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
> safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?

Sure. As long as there are no receptacles on that 14-guage leg,
and as long as the total wattage of the 4 fixtures won't/can't
exceed 15A (thats 1800W of lighting at 120V, you don't anticipate
putting 500W bulbs in them, do you? <g> I'm guessing with that
many fixtures, you're running a 60W or 75W tops in each?) there
is no practical way you could overload the wattage total with
those 4 fixtures. A 100 Watt bulb in each fixture is a total
draw of only 3.33 A.

This is where the "code is code is code" types will stop by and
argue, mainly because they pick every possible fight with me.
Code is code, but sometimes code needs to be *practical*. If you
had a *practical* way of replacing that piece of wire, I would
say sure, follow code.

Those are the numbers, do what you feel comfortable with.

TP
--

"Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
> On 05 Jul 2003, Alexander Galkin wrote:
>
> > I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation
> > project. I have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the
> > same breaker. There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the
> > entrance switch box and from the switch box there are three separate
> > 12 AWG wires bringing power to each of three recessed lights circuit.
> > One of the circuits are 4-way switch that controls 4 recessed lights.
> > Unfortunately one of three switches has old AWG 14 wire running to the
> > nearest box and there is no way to replace it as it is virtually
> > inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total of 25
> > recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I
> > want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
> > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
> > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
> > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?
>
> Sure.

NO! If a general purpose circuit is protected at 20 amps ALL the conductors
must be #12.


.........SNIPed dangerous advice by Tom Pederast.........


> This is where the "code is code is code" types will stop by and
> argue, mainly because they pick every possible fight with me.


Like I've told you before, Tom Pederast, don't post dangerous info and you
won't have to whine about people correcting you......and your reply to the
OP is just _another_ example of the dangerous info that you post. What
_are_ your qualifications as an electrician?


> Code is code, but sometimes code needs to be *practical*. If you
> had a *practical* way of replacing that piece of wire, I would
> say sure, follow code.


Gee Wally, how hard is it to run a 14-2 w ground HR (that's a _H_ome _R_un,
Tommy) to the switch that has the #14? So that's the precedent, eh Tom
Poltergiest?......if it's TOOOOOOOOOOOO _hard_ it's OK to disregard the
code? For a wannabe lesstrician (thanks Turtle) butcher like you, evidently
so.


> Those are the numbers, do what you feel comfortable with.

That's the hack butcher's way.......be warned.

"Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns93AFED9A6FA27tomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
> On 05 Jul 2003, Joseph Meehan wrote:
>
> > No Tom. Not only is it against code and would be pointed out by
> > any inspector, but it can also be dangerous.
>
> With all due respect (and believe me, I do respect your opinions)
> getting out of bed "can be dangerous".
>
> > Who knows what the next guy might due and increase that to over 15
> > amps,
>
> sorry, I don't buy that for a minute. I posted the numbers, and
> somebody would need to put >450 Watts of lamp in each of these
> recessed cans to exceed 1800 Watts. The next guy is going to do
> that? Why? How?
> Agreed on the need for circuit breakers, but still waiting for
> anyone to tell me how to run > 1800W of lighting in 4 recessed
> cans which are very likely plastered with warning labels not to
> exceed 75 or 100 watt bulbs.
>
> Sorry, your only valid argument is "code". You going to tell me
> every inch of every job you've ever done meets code?
>
> In any case, the original poster knows about meeting code, and
> he knows the practical side of his dilema, let him choose.
>
> --
> TP

Tommy, anyone but a HACK like you would understand. Read the Code. Learn
the Code. Follow the Code. Live because of the Code.

In alt.home.repair on Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:51:03 -0400 "Alexander
Galkin" <(E-Mail Removed)> posted:

>I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I
>have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker.
>There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and
>from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to
>each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch
>that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old
>AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as
>it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total
>of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A.

It's important to be concerned about the expected load, but one should
also think about the unexpected load. For example maybe there will be
a total short circuit. Even though 14 gauge wire is only rated for 15
amp, I'm sure it can carry more than 20 amps for a few seconds in case
of a total short, and the 20 amp circuit breaker will blow.

Besides the situation described by someone where a later person
increases the load, the theoretical problem now would be that there
was some partial short circuit, whatever that would be, that allowed
ore than 15 amps to flow, but fewer than 20. The breaker would not
trip, but the wire would in theory be hot enough to start a fire.
(well, not if it were 16 amps. It would just be a little hotter than
at 15. I don't know when it gets hot enough to make a fire. Although
I have phone lines in the house that sometimes work fine and sometimes
give a big hum and don't work. There's no telling what can happen.

If you can't change the wires, can you put a 15 amp circuit breaker in
that circuit only. Is there any way to do this without a circuit
breaker box? I don't know. What about a light bulb socket, or a
screw-in fuse socket, rated for more than 15 amps that has instead a
15 amp fuse. Presumably it will never blow, so one box of 4 will last
you forever. If it does blow more than once, you'll decide what to do
then. Is such a fuse within code. If there are no exposed metal
parts it certainly seems safe enough. If not there must be
minicircuit breaker boxes. Or bring the 14 guage wire back to the
main fuse box and do it there. (All wire nuts must be within a
junction box, I beleive. (What about soldered wires?)

> I
>want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14
>wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights
>that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit
>breaker in main panel?
>


Meirman

If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.

Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

"mike" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> I'm surpprised, as dangerous as electric can be, that the Liberals in
> America allow us to continue using it!

How else would you fascist conservatives keep-up with our activities?

Op

"Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...

> > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
> > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
> > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
> > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?
>
> Sure.

Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire *cannot* be
protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't believe
that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.

In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's and
HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.

Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire a
*licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code. I
know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be money
well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring
project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's printed
on.

You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for litigation
if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle screwed
into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both the
homeowner *and* his insurance company.

OK, following majority's advise I will do something to formally adhere to
the code. Although technically I believe I would be just fine installing a
20 A breaker. First, that AVG 14 wire that connects one of 4 way switches is
covered by stairs so it is not possible to replace it without ripping off
stairs completely. This also leads to the fact that it is not possible to
add any load to this switch. All other wires in the circuit are AVG 12 so
even if "some guy would connect table saw, or heater" or anything else as
has been discussed it won't burn that AVG 14 wire as current won't flow over
it. Yes, there is code but there is also common sense, that is not less
important.



"Banister Stairwell" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:ajZNa.44099$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> "Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
>
> > > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
> > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
> > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
> > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?
> >
> > Sure.
>
> Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire *cannot*
be
> protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't believe
> that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.
>
> In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
> local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's
and
> HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.
>
> Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire a
> *licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
> will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code. I
> know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be
money
> well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code"
wiring
> project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's
printed
> on.
>
> You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for
litigation
> if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
> serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
> he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle screwed
> into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both the
> homeowner *and* his insurance company.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Alexander Galkin" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:zuednbbnBaQBGZWiU-(E-Mail Removed)...
> OK, following majority's advise I will do something to formally adhere to
> the code.

I think you've made a good choice here.

> First, that AVG 14 wire that connects one of 4 way switches is
> covered by stairs so it is not possible to replace it without ripping off
> stairs completely.

Perhaps, but you'd be amazed at what an experienced professional electrician
can do as far as routing wire through seemingly impossible paths.

> Yes, there is code but there is also common sense, that is not less
> important.

Unfortunately, I think if you were to try and make this argument to an
insurance company or an attorney, it may very well fall on deaf ears.

Again, you've made a good decision in wanting to do it right and to code.
Not that you would have a problem necesssarily, but you'll be covered if you
do.




























>
>
> "Banister Stairwell" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:ajZNa.44099$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> > "Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:Xns93AFD0C91184Ctomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
> >
> > > > ....A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch
> > > > AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has
> > > > only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I
> > > > safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?
> > >
> > > Sure.
> >
> > Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire
*cannot*
> be
> > protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't
believe
> > that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.
> >
> > In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because
> > local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's
> and
> > HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.
> >
> > Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire
a
> > *licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who
> > will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code.
I
> > know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be
> money
> > well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code"
> wiring
> > project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's
> printed
> > on.
> >
> > You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for
> litigation
> > if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if
> > serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because
> > he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle
screwed
> > into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both
the
> > homeowner *and* his insurance company.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"Tom Pendergast" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns93AFED9A6FA27tomicubedcom@130.133.1.4...
>
>
> Sorry, your only valid argument is "code". You going to tell me
> every inch of every job you've ever done meets code?
>
> In any case, the original poster knows about meeting code, and
> he knows the practical side of his dilema, let him choose.
>
> --
> TP

This is Turtle.

TP , You say that Joesph's only arguement or point to stand on is it being ,
it's not to code , and you say he is wrong by wanting to stay to the NEC
code. TP when you ask this question to him [ your going to say every job you
ever done was to code] . This tells me one of two things about you. 1)
Your just bulling here to get a responce from the group to have fun and play
a game. OR 2) Your a Very Inane incubus person with no respect at all for
human life or property.

Which is it TP ? Yea TP, it's going to be hard to answer this one with out
a dictionary for your not going to choose the bulling part are you.

TURTLE