Hello everyone:

We're having our house painted and we have been very satisfied with
this contractor from the
get-go...He came recommended to us through friends & we saw his work
first-hand on their large, new house (ours is not a McMansion and is an
older home). The contractor has been everything we could have hoped
for, excellent quality work (so far), on time every day, great
communcations, price, etc. Now along comes our otherwise-great neighbor
next door and when the topic of our house being painted came up, he
mentioned that the contractor is not using a vacuum...He says the one
he and another neighbor used had a vacuum and that it's required by the
town. I figure he's right, I had heard of this being an ordinance in
some towns, it just didn't occur to me that it might be one in mine! So
he goes on about how my beloved contractor can get summoned, fined, and
even disallowed from working again in the town if he gets
caught.....and that its important to use one because of health &
environmental concerns. I replied that perhaps in the case of an entire
house being sanded before painting, then yes, especially if the house
has very old paint on it, which increases the odds that it would have
lead in it. I told him that neither of those fits my case and that he
shouldn't worry.

Later I got to thinking how ridiculous the comment was...I mean there
are worse environmental hazards than a little bit of paint particles
being strewn in the air (house only partly sanded). Maybe he just
wanted to inform me, but still it took some of the joy out of the fact
we were getting a spanking new paint job on the house...

The supposed environmental concern I think is overblown...driving an
SUV, for example, probably has an infinitely greater environmental
footprint than ground up latex resin, solvent, and colorant. Besides,
not every contractor can likely afford an extra piece of equipment like
those vacuums. Neighbor probably thought we were getting it done on the
cheap, but price, while fair, was not significantly less than all the
other proposals we priced.

Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)

Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?

Best Regards,

Chris

you must have some pretty irresponsible boat owner friends. boat owners I
know would never dump a battery in the water.

oh well. let the grandkids worry about it. that seems to be the norm
nowadays.
"Norminn" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:nD9Vg.5382$(E-Mail Removed) ink.net...
clipped
>
> Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
>
> Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Chris
>

Gee .. this is a new one. Your town probably has a website listing city
codes. I would frame the question to the contractur, being sure to
mention the source. If it is a real requirement, that should prompt the
contractor to comply. Perhaps it is only required for lead paint, but
that suggests you must test first.

If you sand lead paint, and it is a nice warm day with windows open, you
can really create an indoor lead problem from the residue or from
breathing dust outdoors.

We had a major disaster when our condo was pressure washed, because the
previous paint job was so awful. Tons of peeling paint, probably with
lead in older layers, that we knew would come off, so hubby and I
devised a way to catch it and dispose of it. One allowable way of
disposing, at the time, was to put it in the dumpster .. trash in
dumpsters is incinerated, so I don't know what that saves the
environment. Laws don't always make sense ) Most of the boaters I
know dump expended batteries in the ocean, along with their soda cans
and plastic bags.

We could just as easily let the paint lay on the ground, let it dry, and
vaccum it up, but it would have been all over the landscaping.

rank beginner wrote:
> Hello everyone:
>
> We're having our house painted and we have been very satisfied with
> this contractor from the
> get-go...He came recommended to us through friends & we saw his work
> first-hand on their large, new house (ours is not a McMansion and is an
> older home). The contractor has been everything we could have hoped
> for, excellent quality work (so far), on time every day, great
> communcations, price, etc. Now along comes our otherwise-great neighbor
> next door and when the topic of our house being painted came up, he
> mentioned that the contractor is not using a vacuum...He says the one
> he and another neighbor used had a vacuum and that it's required by the
> town. I figure he's right, I had heard of this being an ordinance in
> some towns, it just didn't occur to me that it might be one in mine! So
> he goes on about how my beloved contractor can get summoned, fined, and
> even disallowed from working again in the town if he gets
> caught.....and that its important to use one because of health &
> environmental concerns. I replied that perhaps in the case of an entire
> house being sanded before painting, then yes, especially if the house
> has very old paint on it, which increases the odds that it would have
> lead in it. I told him that neither of those fits my case and that he
> shouldn't worry.
>
> Later I got to thinking how ridiculous the comment was...I mean there
> are worse environmental hazards than a little bit of paint particles
> being strewn in the air (house only partly sanded). Maybe he just
> wanted to inform me, but still it took some of the joy out of the fact
> we were getting a spanking new paint job on the house...
>
> The supposed environmental concern I think is overblown...driving an
> SUV, for example, probably has an infinitely greater environmental
> footprint than ground up latex resin, solvent, and colorant. Besides,
> not every contractor can likely afford an extra piece of equipment like
> those vacuums. Neighbor probably thought we were getting it done on the
> cheap, but price, while fair, was not significantly less than all the
> other proposals we priced.
>
> Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
>
> Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Chris

For houses without lead-based paint, who cares?

For houses WITH lbp, it's a real and valid concern. So the first
question is, does you house have lbp? If not, you should assume it
does.

For lbp, there are various levels of work. Your contractor should be
using "safe work practices" as you are are seeking lead "control", NOT
abatement.

An important part of lead control is stabilization. You need a good
surface for your new paint. If there is lead, sand is a no-no. You
can scrape it, you can remove it (but not with heat), you can remove
the wood, or you can wet-sand it. Regular sanding is bad.

At the end, you should seek "clearance" of the house. On Federally
funded projects, clearance is a requirement. Basically, the contractor
should clean up all remnants of lead, including particle on the ground.
They typically use a HEPA vacuum for this, but there are other ways,
too. But if the house has lead paint, you should check your drip-line
to see if the ground is already contaminated. If so, you have options
but you need to deal with that lead, too. Planting bushed is an
option, as is removal of the soil.

As for the town's ordinance, who knows. It would be understandable to
enforce lbp requirements on houses with lbp or who's status is not
know. For houses known to be lead free (from testing or age), it
wouldn't make much sense -- but who ever said laws make sense.

My suggestion is that you test the paint to figure out what's going on.
Even a do-it-yourself test kit from the hardware store is better than
not knowing. Test ALL layers, not just the top -- you can use a knife
to cut through them to the base wood.

Finally, a suggestions for you to make to your painter. Tell him that
there are lots of lead-training courses out there. Most are 1-day but
a supervisor's course is longer (3 days?). Most are free. If he takes
it and then uses the safe work practices, he can market that as just
another service of a great painting contractor. Upscale people love it
because it gives them a warm, cozy.

Good luck. Let us know what the testing shows.

"rank beginner" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> it just didn't occur to me that it might be one in mine! So
> he goes on about how my beloved contractor can get summoned, fined, and
> even disallowed from working again in the town if he gets
> caught.....and that its important to use one because of health &
> environmental concerns.
> Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?

Does not matter what I think, Only thing I do think is that your neighbor
should mind his own business. Sounds like he may be jealous of your new
paint job. Some people are just like that.

Go crack open a beer and admire your new paint job.

Norminn wrote:
> clipped
> >
> > Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> > particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> > envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
> >
> > Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> > to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> > be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> Gee .. this is a new one. Your town probably has a website listing city
> codes. I would frame the question to the contractur, being sure to
> mention the source. If it is a real requirement, that should prompt the
> contractor to comply. Perhaps it is only required for lead paint, but
> that suggests you must test first.
>
> If you sand lead paint, and it is a nice warm day with windows open, you
> can really create an indoor lead problem from the residue or from
> breathing dust outdoors.
>
> We had a major disaster when our condo was pressure washed, because the
> previous paint job was so awful. Tons of peeling paint, probably with
> lead in older layers, that we knew would come off, so hubby and I
> devised a way to catch it and dispose of it. One allowable way of
> disposing, at the time, was to put it in the dumpster .. trash in
> dumpsters is incinerated, so I don't know what that saves the
> environment. Laws don't always make sense ) Most of the boaters I
> know dump expended batteries in the ocean, along with their soda cans
> and plastic bags.
>
> We could just as easily let the paint lay on the ground, let it dry, and
> vaccum it up, but it would have been all over the landscaping.

Many, but not all, condo were built after 1978. Anything after then
doesn't need lead control because it is assumed to be lead-free.

Lead paint from residential projects, such as yours, can safely and
legally be disposed of in regular trash. I think the only caveat is
that it is supposed to be double-bagged. It is then for the garbage
company to control their emissions. What you did was correct.

Thanks to Norminn, Pat, & everyone who responded for your helpful
replies.

I don't think we need to test our house (single-family, built in early
60s), because I contacted the previous owner last night after my
neighbor's comment and asked him about past paintings of the house
before we bought. He said that since 1978 (the year lead in paint was
banned under federal law) the house had been painted about 5 times, and
at least once he could recall it was completely sanded down. Which
means there would remain very little lead-based paint left on the
surface of the wood -- if indeed there was any ever at all....And I
also agree that local ordinances can be just ridiculous.....I mean if
you're not going to strictly enforce them, why bother? ...a lot of it
strikes me as politicking, local posturing by city councils pressured
by homeowners hysterical about one thing or another.....What I wish
they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
colorant particulates getting airborne.

I'm not sure I would not use a contractor just because he didn't use a
vacuum as part of his painting service, especially if the contractor is
otherwise really good. That's the case with this one, he is without
question an excellent painter himself and his crew is great. They are
attentive to our questions and really goes out of his way to inform us
of the progress of the painting. We have been delighted so far with how
things are turning out. They just started the main body of the house
today, after finishing the trim & mouldings yesterday. It's really
starting to look good. I haven't seen hare nor hide of our neighbor so
far today....

Chris

Pat wrote:
> Norminn wrote:
> > clipped
> > >
> > > Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> > > particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> > > envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
> > >
> > > Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> > > to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> > > be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
> > Gee .. this is a new one. Your town probably has a website listing city
> > codes. I would frame the question to the contractur, being sure to
> > mention the source. If it is a real requirement, that should prompt the
> > contractor to comply. Perhaps it is only required for lead paint, but
> > that suggests you must test first.
> >
> > If you sand lead paint, and it is a nice warm day with windows open, you
> > can really create an indoor lead problem from the residue or from
> > breathing dust outdoors.
> >
> > We had a major disaster when our condo was pressure washed, because the
> > previous paint job was so awful. Tons of peeling paint, probably with
> > lead in older layers, that we knew would come off, so hubby and I
> > devised a way to catch it and dispose of it. One allowable way of
> > disposing, at the time, was to put it in the dumpster .. trash in
> > dumpsters is incinerated, so I don't know what that saves the
> > environment. Laws don't always make sense ) Most of the boaters I
> > know dump expended batteries in the ocean, along with their soda cans
> > and plastic bags.
> >
> > We could just as easily let the paint lay on the ground, let it dry, and
> > vaccum it up, but it would have been all over the landscaping.
>
> Many, but not all, condo were built after 1978. Anything after then
> doesn't need lead control because it is assumed to be lead-free.
>
> Lead paint from residential projects, such as yours, can safely and
> legally be disposed of in regular trash. I think the only caveat is
> that it is supposed to be double-bagged. It is then for the garbage
> company to control their emissions. What you did was correct.

Thanks to Norminn, Pat, & everyone who responded for your helpful
replies.

I don't think we need to test our house (single-family, built in early
60s), because I contacted the previous owner last night after my
neighbor's comment and asked him about past paintings of the house
before we bought. He said that since 1978 (the year lead in paint was
banned under federal law) the house had been painted about 5 times, and
at least once he could recall it was completely sanded down. Which
means there would remain very little lead-based paint left on the
surface of the wood -- if indeed there was any ever at all....And I
also agree that local ordinances can be just ridiculous.....I mean if
you're not going to strictly enforce them, why bother? ...a lot of it
strikes me as politicking, local posturing by city councils pressured
by homeowners hysterical about one thing or another.....What I wish
they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
colorant particulates getting airborne.

I'm not sure I would not use a contractor just because he didn't use a
vacuum as part of his painting service, especially if the contractor is
otherwise really good. That's the case with this one, he is without
question an excellent painter himself and his crew is great. They are
attentive to our questions and really goes out of his way to inform us
of the progress of the painting. We have been delighted so far with how
things are turning out. They just started the main body of the house
today, after finishing the trim & mouldings yesterday. It's really
starting to look good. I haven't seen hare nor hide of our neighbor so
far today....

I'll check my town codes to see what exactly the ordinance says
regarding this, but I don't really feel like it now
I feel like, here we are starting off the lovely Fall with a new paint
job on our recently-moved-in house, improving our property and the
neighborhood, and then we can't even have fun with it and the joy is
lessened because of what the next-door brought up......Ahhh, suburbia..


Chris


Pat wrote:
> Norminn wrote:
> > clipped
> > >
> > > Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> > > particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> > > envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
> > >
> > > Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> > > to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> > > be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
> > Gee .. this is a new one. Your town probably has a website listing city
> > codes. I would frame the question to the contractur, being sure to
> > mention the source. If it is a real requirement, that should prompt the
> > contractor to comply. Perhaps it is only required for lead paint, but
> > that suggests you must test first.
> >
> > If you sand lead paint, and it is a nice warm day with windows open, you
> > can really create an indoor lead problem from the residue or from
> > breathing dust outdoors.
> >
> > We had a major disaster when our condo was pressure washed, because the
> > previous paint job was so awful. Tons of peeling paint, probably with
> > lead in older layers, that we knew would come off, so hubby and I
> > devised a way to catch it and dispose of it. One allowable way of
> > disposing, at the time, was to put it in the dumpster .. trash in
> > dumpsters is incinerated, so I don't know what that saves the
> > environment. Laws don't always make sense ) Most of the boaters I
> > know dump expended batteries in the ocean, along with their soda cans
> > and plastic bags.
> >
> > We could just as easily let the paint lay on the ground, let it dry, and
> > vaccum it up, but it would have been all over the landscaping.
>
> Many, but not all, condo were built after 1978. Anything after then
> doesn't need lead control because it is assumed to be lead-free.
>
> Lead paint from residential projects, such as yours, can safely and
> legally be disposed of in regular trash. I think the only caveat is
> that it is supposed to be double-bagged. It is then for the garbage
> company to control their emissions. What you did was correct.

rank beginner wrote:
> ....What I wish
> they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
> almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
> Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
> americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
> child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
> believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
> those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
> requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
> come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
> 100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
> colorant particulates getting airborne.
>

Lead is a proven hazard. Laws promoting the responsible removal of
this hazard seem pretty reasonable to me, and I guess the onus must be
on you as the home-owner, either personally or through your contractor,
to ensure that you're not polluting the neighborhood in an effort to
improve your home's appearance. As far as your neighbours spraying
herbicide on their lawn to improve their home's appearance, there's a
great deal of panic over this issue, despite the fact that weed control
is predominantly achieved with 24-D, a synthesized plant hormone in use
for 60 years. There is a list of double-blind studies on this stuff as
long as my arm, and none show any harm to humans under remotely normal
conditions. If I lived in your neighborhood and was out walking with
my 3-year old daughter, I'd be far more concerned about her contact
with your lead particles than the bi-monthly weed treatment of your
other neighbours, especially considering that every lawn treatment
company I know of posts signs for at least 24 hours after spraying to
inform people of the recent treatments.

Good luck with your paint job, hope it turns out well.

Maurice:

Go back and read my last post again. Lead was banned from paint in
1978. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension. There is
NO lead-based paint present in any way, shape,
or form on my home.

And one more thing, if the pesticides and herbicides are so safe, why
do they put signs on the lawns?? And why is Monsanto, the maker of
Round-Up, constantly on the receiving end of calls by environmental
organizations for suspension of its application in human- and
animal-inhabited areas??
Why is Monsanto and other pesticide & herbicides manufacturers
currently on the watch list for their implication in the destruction of
amphibians? The University of Pittsburgh has produced scientific
studies pointing to the unequivocal destructive role that these
herbicedes play in environmental contamination:
http://www.pitt.edu/~relyea/Roundup.html

In addition, spraying trucks go around with MUCH more frequency than
neighbors' house sanding and painting, so your argument falls apart
there as well.

Please keep your facts straight, your argument tight, and improve your
reading comprehension.

Best Regards,

Chris


maurice wrote:
> rank beginner wrote:
> > ....What I wish
> > they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
> > almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
> > Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
> > americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
> > child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
> > believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
> > those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
> > requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
> > come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
> > 100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
> > colorant particulates getting airborne.
> >
>
> Lead is a proven hazard. Laws promoting the responsible removal of
> this hazard seem pretty reasonable to me, and I guess the onus must be
> on you as the home-owner, either personally or through your contractor,
> to ensure that you're not polluting the neighborhood in an effort to
> improve your home's appearance. As far as your neighbours spraying
> herbicide on their lawn to improve their home's appearance, there's a
> great deal of panic over this issue, despite the fact that weed control
> is predominantly achieved with 24-D, a synthesized plant hormone in use
> for 60 years. There is a list of double-blind studies on this stuff as
> long as my arm, and none show any harm to humans under remotely normal
> conditions. If I lived in your neighborhood and was out walking with
> my 3-year old daughter, I'd be far more concerned about her contact
> with your lead particles than the bi-monthly weed treatment of your
> other neighbours, especially considering that every lawn treatment
> company I know of posts signs for at least 24 hours after spraying to
> inform people of the recent treatments.
>
> Good luck with your paint job, hope it turns out well.

Here's another source at U. Pitt that shows Round-Up is "extrmely
lethal" to animal life by herbicides:

http://www.umc.pitt.edu/rr/2005summer/herbicide.html

You really don't want to put yourself in the position of having to
defend the safety of herbicides and pesticides, trust me.

But thanks for wishing me well on our paint job.


Best Regards,

Chris


rank beginner wrote:
> Maurice:
>
> Go back and read my last post again. Lead was banned from paint in
> 1978. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension. There is
> NO lead-based paint present in any way, shape,
> or form on my home.
>
> And one more thing, if the pesticides and herbicides are so safe, why
> do they put signs on the lawns?? And why is Monsanto, the maker of
> Round-Up, constantly on the receiving end of calls by environmental
> organizations for suspension of its application in human- and
> animal-inhabited areas??
> Why is Monsanto and other pesticide & herbicides manufacturers
> currently on the watch list for their implication in the destruction of
> amphibians? The University of Pittsburgh has produced scientific
> studies pointing to the unequivocal destructive role that these
> herbicedes play in environmental contamination:
> http://www.pitt.edu/~relyea/Roundup.html
>
> In addition, spraying trucks go around with MUCH more frequency than
> neighbors' house sanding and painting, so your argument falls apart
> there as well.
>
> Please keep your facts straight, your argument tight, and improve your
> reading comprehension.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Chris
>
>
> maurice wrote:
> > rank beginner wrote:
> > > ....What I wish
> > > they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
> > > almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
> > > Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
> > > americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
> > > child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
> > > believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
> > > those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
> > > requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
> > > come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
> > > 100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
> > > colorant particulates getting airborne.
> > >
> >
> > Lead is a proven hazard. Laws promoting the responsible removal of
> > this hazard seem pretty reasonable to me, and I guess the onus must be
> > on you as the home-owner, either personally or through your contractor,
> > to ensure that you're not polluting the neighborhood in an effort to
> > improve your home's appearance. As far as your neighbours spraying
> > herbicide on their lawn to improve their home's appearance, there's a
> > great deal of panic over this issue, despite the fact that weed control
> > is predominantly achieved with 24-D, a synthesized plant hormone in use
> > for 60 years. There is a list of double-blind studies on this stuff as
> > long as my arm, and none show any harm to humans under remotely normal
> > conditions. If I lived in your neighborhood and was out walking with
> > my 3-year old daughter, I'd be far more concerned about her contact
> > with your lead particles than the bi-monthly weed treatment of your
> > other neighbours, especially considering that every lawn treatment
> > company I know of posts signs for at least 24 hours after spraying to
> > inform people of the recent treatments.
> >
> > Good luck with your paint job, hope it turns out well.